Restructure/Redesign

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c4ho
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:23 am

Re: Restructure/Redesign

Postby c4ho » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:05 am

That is good to hear about the dbase. previously i have requested it and latterly been contacted by other users whom you have told to get it off me.

Please make the database available directly without the inconvenience of having to sign up and have a human dialogue every time you want an update. That is not a viable solution.

Im glad to hear you will always have all data conveniently available free of charge.

click170
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:21 am
Location: Canada-Land

Re: Restructure/Redesign

Postby click170 » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:36 am

How about if its just a simple forum post with the topic set to "Requesting Copy of Database" where users can post to, to request copies of the database? There doesn't seem to be any unified way of requesting it yet, so there, I proposed one. At least until the site is finished with its much anticipated spiffy overhaul.

c4ho
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:23 am

Re: Restructure/Redesign

Postby c4ho » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:26 am

FYI the last dbase i seen was 68MB zipped.

DieBagger
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:17 pm

Re: Restructure/Redesign

Postby DieBagger » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:23 am

emigrating wrote:I find it interesting that there is such as small number of people posting here. Is it safe to assume from that fact alone that most people do not have a problem with what we are proposing (i.e. certain premium services available for a small fee)?

Because there are usually so many different people posting on this forum? Funny though that as soon as two people say they're ok with premium services (ignoring the fact that one of them seems to be involved with your commercial app), that's all the approval you need. If you really want user feedback, just make a poll (and also announce that poll on the forums of the main htcp apps) and see what comes out of it.

However since it seems decided that the site is going with premium services, I wish you all the best with it and hope I'm wrong with my opinion that this is a step in the wrong direction for thetvdb.

emigrating
Site Admin
Posts: 278
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Restructure/Redesign

Postby emigrating » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:38 am

DieBagger wrote:
emigrating wrote:I find it interesting that there is such as small number of people posting here. Is it safe to assume from that fact alone that most people do not have a problem with what we are proposing (i.e. certain premium services available for a small fee)?

Because there are usually so many different people posting on this forum? Funny though that as soon as two people say they're ok with premium services (ignoring the fact that one of them seems to be involved with your commercial app), that's all the approval you need.

Now you're at it again, taking things out of context and twisting my words. Please show me where exactly I said that was all the approval I needed? I asked if c4ho was certain he was speaking for the silent masses as two more people had said they were OK with the proposed changes once I specifically asked.

Yes, dgaust is a very active member at myTV, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything - he is still a user of TheTVDB's data?
I get the feeling you have a problem with me developing and selling myTV as a commercial application rather than a free-for-all open-source project? If that's so, how do you suggest I put food on the table or petrol in the cars?

c4ho
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:23 am

Re: Restructure/Redesign

Postby c4ho » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:06 pm

emigrating wrote:....
Now you're at it again, taking things out of context and twisting my words. Please show me where exactly I said that was all the approval I needed? I asked if c4ho was certain he was speaking for the silent masses


For clarity I never answered that question as I assumed it was rhetorical being as it was so ridiculous. No one can speak for everyone; however I clearly stated that "a couple of us here are trying to help speak for the silent masses".

I think tvdb can do this but your way way from having it worked out how to do it. The posted definitions of cash in and out contradict themselves but i believe that is just lack of detail rather than malice of purpose. Were probably just debating this too early. Come up with a solid plan, define it here and then take a poll and have a healthy open source discussion.

DieBagger
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:17 pm

Re: Restructure/Redesign

Postby DieBagger » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:37 pm

emigrating wrote:As for the silent masses, after I specifically asked "Is it safe to assume ... most people do not have a problem with what we are proposing" two more people came along and say "it's all good" - are you sure you still speak for the masses?

Of course you can lay this out differently, but accusing me twice of twisting your words is just a personal attack. (btw I don't know dgaust or his relation towards your app, it was just that the first thing that popped into my head was "isn't that an admin from mytv?")

I don't have a problem with you writing a commercial app, why should I. I'm perfectly fine with my mediaportal and mp-tvseries. However I just can't shake the feeling that you're trying to push those premium features so you can have a usp for your product. I can be wrong of course and as I said, I won't oppose to the idea of those premium features any more since I don't think I can change your mind about this and I already expressed my feelings about it.

emigrating
Site Admin
Posts: 278
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 pm
Contact:

Re: Restructure/Redesign

Postby emigrating » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:59 pm

myTV already has unique selling points, such as a badass developer who will bite your head off for no apparent reason (or so I'm told :p).

But if you think about what you just said, myTV (or for that reason any other) application would not get a USP from the fact that there are subscription based premium services here on TheTVDB. Unless we go down the route of licensing the actual developers rather than the end-users - every single person wanting these "premium" services would have to cough up more money anyhow, and it would be available across the board for any application.

Obviously I can continue to add APIs directly geared towards myTV (and it'll be slightly easier for me than for a developer without direct access to the backend server), but there is nothing stopping any other developer from doing the same thing by way of their own server interfacing directly with TheTVDB.

Anyway, you've said it a couple times and I guess now it's my turn; "I hope we can continue a constructive discussion now without getting all aggressive on each other!" - which we in fact did do for a while.

szsori
Site Admin
Posts: 1971
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:23 pm

Re: Restructure/Redesign

Postby szsori » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:05 pm

Lots of people are letting their emotions get in the way of this discussion. So, I'm going to give the final word on this and lock the thread, since there's really no need to continue. edit: Despite people calming down a bit about everything, I still see this thread just going in circles, so I'll still lock it.

  1. We have never said what would be premium services. We have said that existing interfaces will remain free, and we'll stick to that. That alone is enough to guarantee that all existing applications can continue to use the data easily. This is the main thing that everyone is forgetting... existing functionality will not change at all.
  2. People continue to focus on certain aspects of what we say with regards to hardware and bandwidth without taking those comments in their entirety. Improvements that we have planned for the site require more processing power. While we can rely to some extent on donated hardware, that will only go so far.
  3. Without giving exact numbers (since those have added to the confusion to this point), the expected bandwidth costs for the site currently far exceed the revenue from donations and advertising. While bandwidth is currently donated, there's the expectation that we start paying for a portion of it as soon as possible. The larger the percentage we can pay for, the more likely the site will stay around indefinitely.
  4. Donations are negligible at this point. Ad revenue is currently under $100/month. If a company wants exclusive advertising on the site, I'll consider it. In addition, after the schema is reworked I'll be addressing the site design which will focus on streamlining everything and making the advertising locations more profitable. I will not put ad locations that are annoying or interfere with the simplicity of the site.
  5. I understand that if people aren't happy with the service they provide, they'll go elsewhere or branch. I don't see this happening since we'll actually be improving the site drastically while keeping the current services free, but if people really want to they can. This keeps us honest and motivates us to work hard.
  6. Right now the data in the site has no copyright attached. As I noted in the beginning of the thread, data will include a source which will allow us to track where the data is coming from. This will include all of the current data being marked as "Unattributed - No Copyright". This data will be gradually replaced with data that is copyright by the user. The goal is to have the copyright work similar to linux distributions, where they're always free online (in our case via the main API), but there are alternate delivery methods that cost money (CD's in the case of distros). This will not only protect us, but will actually show users that their contributions are required to be provided for free.
  7. We will form an LLC to protect ourselves. We will not be a non-profit since we don't satisfy the requirements for that (the closest option is being educational, but that's a big stretch). Once we completely cover site costs and generate a savings fund for the site, we may distribute the income from the site amongst the site owners based on their fractional ownership. This will be made clear when people sign up for premium content... if people don't feel comfortable with that, they don't have to sign up... the data itself will remain free.
  8. I'll do a 1 time export of the database (removing the user table) and make it available on the site using CDN for caching. Automated backups are currently not possible with the current schema, but this is one of my goals with the new schema. Right now it takes a bit of work which is why they're not provided all the time.
  9. The new site structure and design will make many things easier and possible while trying to reduce bandwidth and CPU usage. It will also add a lot of the requested features people have asked for, and some that they have not. More than anything, it'll give us a firm foundation to continue adding features in the future, which is something we can't say about the current system.
  10. Anyone that has an issue with this can send me a PM and I'll respond if it warrants it. I really recommend just waiting to see what we come up with, though. We want this site to be as useful as possible for people without pissing our end users off. As such I really don't think you guys have anything to worry about. We've always gone out of our way to do what's best for the community and this is the next step in doing that.

Note that the stuff I've said above is non-binding. If we run into a technical problem, legal problem, or just find a better solution we'll adjust accordingly. The other site admins may disagree as well, but we'll discuss that in private since when we discuss things in public people jump into the conversation without understanding everything that's going on. But as of right now the above is true from my perspective.

/end of thread